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Karl Sieber
World Class


United Kingdom
507 Posts
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 :  17:49:20  Show Profile  Visit Karl Sieber's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've been struggling in recent seasons to score as well as I have done earlier in my korfing career. I think the main issues are to do with my arms. As I've incorporated more basketball elements into my shot its made me more versatile around the post, but made my general shooting progressively worse!

What ARM SPECIFIC technique points should I be focusing on if I want to return to a more traditional korfball shot?

Marc
KorfballWorld.com


Netherlands
1753 Posts
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 :  00:09:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First: the 'traditional' or the 'modern' korfball shot?

The traditional korfball shot is based on the making of a 'six', where the circular part creates initial force and the top line of the six shows the moving of the arms: first up, than slightly forward.

With the modern shot, the 'circle' part of the shot is neglected: the ball is usually held in front of the face, while you can look over the ball, and stays there until the stretching of the legs has started (after veering in).

So for the arms, balance is the first key. Use both arms in the same way. This works best when the body also is in balance. Then stretch the arms completely. The longer the stretching, the more aim is given to the shot. With the stretching, first go up and then forward. Some players shoot in a way that looks (a bit or more) like 'pushing' the ball. This gives a fairly flat shot. Focus on getting a good curved shot.

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Steve Barker
KorfballNet.com


USA
2757 Posts
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 :  20:35:09  Show Profile  Visit Steve Barker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The old figure of 8 shooting technique is ineffective in competition because primarily it takes longer to execute and therefore easier to defend.

Marc is right that stability is important to shooting technique but there is much more.

It makes no sense to use the weaker arm muscles to power the shot (although it is possible with lots and lots of training and hard work) rather than using the stronger arm muscles but it is also important to think of the shot in terms of energy.

In essence the shot should be rooted in the feet, powered through legs, directed through the waist and expressed in the fingers. When you get that 4 point connection then the shot flows effortlessly

Developing an effective stance is a key part of building the foundation of an effective shot starting of course with a two footed stance, one foot placed in from of the other with the feet around shoulder width. That stance should be a solid and stable one from which to move on from.

Ensuring effective alignment of the body to the basket and much of early developmental practice can be done 'shooting' without a basket along a straight line focusing on getting the ball to drop onto the line.

Hand position on the ball is also an important factor and the more that the hand is in contact with the ball the more control you have over that ball. The most effective hand position is for fingers to be naturally open and for the thumbs to be facing towards the basket (something that at first feels unnatural)

The execution of the shot involves bringing the ball away from the defender into the area of the neck and closer to the flow of energy generated by the legs. The key is to feel the power generated by the push against the ground flow up through the legs and the waist and then into the arms and the ball moves up close to the face (and naturally further away from the defender) and is then released with an expression of the hands which can best be described as a 'flick' of the wrists (which gives the ball natural back spin).

The breathing needs to be fully aligned with the execution of the shot also and the fingers need to continue to point in the direction of the ball with the palms now facing outwards.

The tricky part is to not use the arms to power the shot but merely to guide the ball using the power generated by the legs and this takes a lot of basic practice breaking the technique into smaller parts. In essence if you shoot without using the power from the legs the ball should drop in front of you because the power has been removed.

The key is to learn how to NOT push the ball with the arms

It is also important to develop a solid and effective static two footed shot before pressing on to then using the same technique to shoot off one foot.

The mental side of shooting can be split into 4 elements;
INTENTION
FOCUS
AWARENESS
EXPECTATION

When these become confused or are poorly understood an effective shot under pressure becomes very difficult

Intention is essentially your 'target' the direction in which the power will be sent.
That target is often (wrongly) thought of as the basket but in truth is a spot above the basket that if the ball reaches at the right angle will cause it to drop through the basket rather than hit it

Focus involves what it is you need to think about or do and again we often hear people talk about the need to 'focus' on the basket which poor advice. In the early stages the focus might be on the execution of the technique or a part of it, or being relaxed, breathing etc but as the shot develops the focus becomes less important and just needs to be placed somewhere such as in the center of the body. Where things go wrong is when the focus drifts into areas it should not, such as the outcome or more importantly what happens if the shot goes in (or doesn't)

Awareness is mostly relevant in terms of competition but also involves an awareness of the body and the mind to enable effective shot correction. The top players will often use their first shot to enable them to make a correction and score with their second. Good awareness also enables a player to notice a better opportunity that suddenly arises as they are about to shoot and use it.

Expectation is a crucial element and is little more than the belief sitting quietly in the mind that the shot will be successful, and if isn't then that it will be next time.

The problem comes when these 4 elements get confused as in when your focus on your Expectation (the outcome), when you are focused on something you only need to be aware of, or when you confuse the object of your intention with that of your focus and anyone who has experienced martial arts will understand the power of your intention when it comes to physical movement and power.

You can often best think of this mental formula using the example of driving home from training. You have a clear intention, your destination, and your focus is on driving mechanics of driving the car (although if you have been driving a long time you can drive without the need for focus so your focus often sits quietly somewhere), you have an awareness of things around you and your speed without needing to focus on them and you Expect to reach home successfully and safely.

Accidents tend to happen when one of more of those elements become confused.

The key to effective shooting is of course practice and repetition but also attention to tiny detail and the difference between scoring and nearly scoring is often in that detail.

It is hugely important for coaches to understand the principles and detail of the methods they are teaching (which of course have to be the most effective ones) so that they can answer any and all questions asked of them as to why a player should do things the way they are suggesting The traditional answer of 'because that is how we do things' is of little help and can actually be translated as "I don't know'.

As they progress player will begin to naturally develop the technique into their own unique style (albeit still within the core principles) as many top players do but the danger comes when other players jump straight into by trying to copy those unique styles without building the foundation needed to effectively execute them first

Developing technical skills can be tough repetitious and challenging work, especially for younger players but as the results achieved in recent years through the talent development programs of the junior national squads, the Korfball School of Excellence program an the more progressive junior programmes have proved such work can prove highly effective.

One of the best examples for me was the performance of the West London Wildcats in a national U13 championships final held in Nottingham in which they scored over 75% of their shots from distance, shots which formed the majority of the significant number of goals scored.

I am hoping to shoot a training DVD when I am back in the UK this year on shooting technique using some of the SOE students or if any are over in the US we might get to do so with a sunny LA background


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Alan
First Team


United Kingdom
77 Posts
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 :  21:13:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The tricky part is to not use the arms to power the shot but merely to guide the ball using the power generated by the legs and this takes a lot of basic practice breaking the technique into smaller parts. In essence if you shoot without using the power from the legs the ball should drop in front of you because the power has been removed.

The key is to learn how to NOT push the ball with the arms


Steve, can I ask you about this?

It's something often repeated and I say the same kind of thing myself with beginners but I'm not sure I really buy it. I completely agree that it is important to use the legs to achieve maximum distance but I just don't see how they provide most of the power.

The problem for the legs is that they not only have to lift the ball but they also have to lift you. The arms just have to lift the ball. An easy experiment is to hold the ball out in front of you resting on your open palms. Jump as high as you like keeping your hands in the same position relative to your body and you'll find the ball escapes your hands by a few inches. That's the result of leg power. Lie on the floor and project the ball upwards using just the arms and it'll go several metres. That's the result of arm power. It seems to me that power comes almost exclusively from the arms.

Certainly the legs assist in overcoming the ball's inertia and jumping means that you release the ball at a higher point which effectively means the ball goes further horizontally but these are minor points in comparison to the power generated by the arms.

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Marc
KorfballWorld.com


Netherlands
1753 Posts
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 :  23:29:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thrust of the legs thrust also the arms up. The move up of the arms, RELATIVE to the moving up from the legs, provides ADDITIONAL power. By the way, a stronger jump (also) moves the ball more up, so the vertical part of force is also increased by a jump. This will give more distance as well as a better change of the ball going through the korf, as it will fall down more vertically.

@ Steve 1: I assume you mean figure 6 and not figure 8. A figure 8 shot technique does not exist, at least not in Dutch korfball at any time.

@Steve 2: as the question was limited to the use of the arms, I only mentioned the arms part.

There will of course be some 'pushing' of the arms. The speed of stretching of the arms defines how much of the force from the legs is given on to the ball. Slower stretching compensates for jumping at shorter distances. By stretching completely you will limit the 'push' again.

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Karl Sieber
World Class


United Kingdom
507 Posts
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 :  18:30:18  Show Profile  Visit Karl Sieber's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the pointers guys. I made a conscious effort to incorporate them at training and in today's game and it seems to have worked! (I got 4).

The legs are definitely a big part of the power generation process, its Newton's third law in effect. You push down against the ground with your feet/foot as part of the jumping process which generates upwards force which translates through the human body's system of levers. How we use our arms adds to this force to varying degrees and directs it. This is what allows us to make the ball go where we want it to. The arms are therefore more about the regulation and directing (or aiming) of force than its initial generation (although as Marc points out the stretching speed can do some of this as well).

From a body mechanics point of view the longer the limbs the more cognitively challenging it becomes to effectively regulate the power, making the shooting accuracy of the typically tall dutch players even more impressive. Its for this reason you rarely see Basketball players in the centre position (usually 7ft ish tall in the NBA) taking 3 point shots.

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Alan
First Team


United Kingdom
77 Posts
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 :  20:27:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Congratulations on your goals Karl.

quote:
By the way, a stronger jump (also) moves the ball more up, so the vertical part of force is also increased by a jump. This will give more distance as well as a better change of the ball going through the korf, as it will fall down more vertically.

I completely agree with this part Marc.

Karl, of course whenever an object is thrown the 3rd law applies which is why having a stable base is important. However I come back to the point that you can just check the respective contributions of each part of the body by using them individually. Use just the legs and the ball goes a few centimetres. Use just the arms and it goes several metres.

You can see on the Gerritsen thread a goal scored from the halfway line sitting down. No legs involved at all. I'm not sure what more proof could be needed. It's not even the case that you need to be connected to the ground. Step off a bench and take a shot while falling and you'll still be able to achieve a large fraction of your range. Here the 3rd law is the factor which means you can't make the ball go quite as far as you have nothing to brace yourself against as the ball pushes back but the effect is not dramatic.

Speaking strictly I suppose the legs do provide most of the power but it gets wasted on the rest of the body. Steve says it makes no sense to use the weaker arm muscles when you could use the stronger leg muscles. The problem is that the stronger leg muscles have to lift 13 stone of person off the ground. That's where all their power goes. Use the leg muscles to kick the ball and it'll go further than you can throw it - but that's because all of their power is being applied to the ball. The weaker arm muscles generate less of the power but most of the effect since most of their power is applied to the ball.

There are lots of rules myths. I think the idea that most of the usable power comes from the legs is a coaching myth.

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Steve Barker
KorfballNet.com


USA
2757 Posts
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 :  21:06:59  Show Profile  Visit Steve Barker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As I said it is possible to develop an effective shot using just the arms but in my experience it is a far effective method and the key is to always be searching for the most effective and efficient means of doing things

Marc you are right I meant 6

Alan the technique you describe of shooting with the arms is possibly the most prominent one within the English game and in my view the reason our shooting is generally so poor from distance in terms of both accuracy and consistency.

English Korfball has been subject to a range or ineffective and often poorly ideas when it comes to shooting, from the figure of 6, holding the ball with just 3 fingers, to poor imitations of the stye of shooting a top Dutch player might be seen using

The use of energy in shooting technique is something we are generally very poor at developing and players are mostly left to develop it naturally over time if at all, with too many coaches teaching players the way they 'shoot' but unable to explain that process in any meaningful detail

The key is to reach of good shot to goal ratio and any idiot can throw huge numbers of shots up in a game and score at least one or two, but such poor shooting often leads to poor ball retention

How often do you hear coaches mention the need to breathe into the shot?

The role the arms play is in guiding the ball, controlling the angle of the shot and ensuring that all of the energy created goes into it. When it comes to shot correction it is very difficult to adjust both the power and the guidance of the ball when the arms are responsible for both. The tricky part of the technique is the rotation of 'flick' of the wrists as the ball is released, the wrists and fingers effectively acting like the end of a whip

The key to developing effective shooting technique is the ability to break in down and focus on component parts gradually bringing them all together in one fluid motion.
The problem is too many players want to run before they have learned to walk and too many coaches are far too focused on winning the next game to risk allowing players to develop newly learned technical skills in competitive games

Naturally the power from the legs lifts you because until the ball is released it needs to be 'part' of you. Every cell of the body should be heading in the direction of the shot until it is released from the hands even directly under the basket The difficulty that many have is that the shot requires 'feeling' rather than just thinking and becoming familiar with the concept of energy and it makes no sense to see people having a great many ways of shooting depending on how far they are from the basket, as too often happens.

With this technique you develop one shot and the only thing that changes is the amount of power required to execute it effectively (the exceptions being the penalty shot and a shot from directly under the basket)

The principles of the static shot technique transfer through into shooting from movement and off one leg again using the same technique whether it be shooting from distance, close range, dropping off from the basket, turning from a post feed or a free pass shot.

Unfortunately this knowledge came too late for me as a player but did enable me to effectively help coach players to levels higher than I was able to achieve in technical terms.
For a long while a taught players to shoot the way I used to shoot

There are always different ways of doing things but the question must always be which is the most effective and the proof is always in the pudding.

It is possible to improve a player of any standards shooting technique using this method in a very short period of time. Helping the player execute this new found skill in competition requires a very different set of skills on the part of the coach.

Coaches need to be able to not only understand and explain the methods they are teaching in detail but those methods must prove effective in time.

The success that the English national junior squads achieved in recent years on the world stage was mostly the result of many hours of hard work developing technical skills, in particular this method of shooting. It is not the only way to shoot in terms of technique, far from it, but it offers a detailed breakdown that is not available when the alternative teaching a technique used by a top Dutch player (often developed instinctively over many many years) and as the say the proof is in the pudding as far as the results we have been able to achieve using it.

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Karl Sieber
World Class


United Kingdom
507 Posts
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 :  21:54:50  Show Profile  Visit Karl Sieber's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can kind of see your point Alan. And intuitively it makes sense that when throwing a ball with your hands the arms are where the power is most likely to come from. Having said that I can recall shots that have felt effortless because the form relating to my feet, legs and body has been correct (or at least closer to correct than my bad shots!). The shots that feel like "bad" shots are the ones I'm hoofing up using mostly arm power so maybe there is something to it.

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Steve Barker
KorfballNet.com


USA
2757 Posts
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 :  02:21:33  Show Profile  Visit Steve Barker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good description Karl.

Alan the Gerritsen example is a poor one as he is probably the most exceptional athlete in the history of the sport the likes of which none of us will ever be required to coach.

Dave Buckland once scored a £400 cash prize winning basket in the Mission Impossible shooting competition at Crystal Palace but his underhand shot would not be one that would prove effective in competition

There is nothing mythical about the concept that the shot is 'powered' the legs. It is a concept that has produced a considerable number of players whose shooting skills far outweigh those who came before them. I spent many years shooting in the manner Alan suggests with inconsistent results and naturally coached players to do the same (with similarly inconsistent results)

The first time Rudy Raemakers came to the Korfball School of Excellence course is was as if he suddenly switched the lights on and it was only from that point that I was able to begin to effectively teach and coach technical skills.

The concept of energy is a crucial one in developing a truly effective shooting technique that can be developed into a skill but all too often this concept is not one that players and coaches consider or even understand. The key to powering the shot from the legs is that the whole of the body 'moves' with the shot, even if that movement is not noticeable on the exterior and that is what is happening when we make that rare shot that Karl talks about.

The same is true of passing and you can pass the ball simply with the arms but that pass will be harder and more accurate over distance if you use the whole of the body

The whole point of coaching technical skills is to help players understand and develop that shot so it doesn't come around only once and again

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Alan
First Team


United Kingdom
77 Posts
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 :  15:17:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I spent many years shooting in the manner Alan suggests with inconsistent results and naturally coached players to do the same (with similarly inconsistent results)

Steve, thanks for the replies. I think there's been a misunderstanding. I am absolutely not suggesting a technique. I've been to one of your training sessions where you concentrated on shooting, thoroughly enjoyed it, and am completely happy to accept that the method you demonstrate is a good one. I also agree that a good shot involves the use of the whole body including the legs.

If you think I'm saying 'just (or mostly) use your arms' then you're right that the Gerritsen example is a bad one. But I'm not saying that.

My point is simply that the saying 'most of the power comes from the legs' is something often repeated but should surely be recognised as wrong, or at least misleading, with a moment's thought.

Forget the best player in the world; you, I, anyone with reasonable strength can sit on the halfway line and shoot a ball somewhere near the basket. It won't be a good shot. It will be weak, poorly aimed and won't go in. But it will go somewhere in the vicinity without use of the legs. It's not even the case that connection with the ground matters. As I said before, take a shot while falling and you still get a decent fraction of your range. I used this merely as an example of the range that can be achieved without any effort from the legs.

I'm not even saying that my point matters particularly. It's just a quibble about something I think is clearly false. We can both look at the same technique - your technique - we can both coach people to use that technique and if one of us says the power is in the arms the legs or the ears it doesn't make too much difference to the player because they're still being taught to do the same thing.

The only way it may be significant is if coaches ignore the arms when dealing with people who struggle to reach the basket from short range. Given that most of the usable power comes from the arms that is the place to look for the problem. It will often be a result of poor extension, poor grip, holding the ball off the centre line etc. rather than not jumping high enough. Nor will it be the case that spending time on squats will help more than press-ups.

I understand that we may not reach agreement but I ask you to explain how it is possible to take a long shot without using the legs or being connected to the ground but impossible to take a shot of any significant distance using just the legs, if what you say is true.

quote:
In essence if you shoot without using the power from the legs the ball should drop in front of you because the power has been removed.

I really struggle to see how this statement can be correct.

Karl, I completely agree. I regularly have the sense of my shots being weak and too reliant on the arms particularly when shooting off one leg after a veer.

I think the reason for that is exactly as Steve describes (if I've understood him correctly). To get the most efficient delivery of the ball, and therefore the one that feels most powerful, there needs to be a sense of uncoiling from the ground upwards through the feet, ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulders, elbows, wrists and fingers. It's like a baton of energy being passed from the beginning of the technique to the end - each part taking the energy handed on and building on it. The shots I take which feel most rubbish are the ones where there's been some disconnect along the way - as if the baton has been dropped and had to be picked up again. The shots that feel weakest and most arm based probably are - by the time the arms are ready to uncoil if the energy has been lost or gone in the wrong direction then the arms are having to start the process from the beginning. I think also what you do with your centre of gravity is likely to be fundamental.

Of course where Steve and I disagree is that I maintain even when the arms have to start again from the beginning the majority of the usable power going into the shot is retained.

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